Home

Previous Entry | Next Entry

The Allure of Innocence

  • Nov. 3rd, 2008 at 7:50 AM
Pic-10
I've noticed recently that there is a prevalence of young female characters being seduced by much older, more experienced (often paranormal) lovers. While this is not by any means a recent phenomena in genre media, the swept-off-the-feet, teary and heart-wrenching emotional tug-of-wars between the We Mustn'ts & the We Wannas have taken center-stage. Bella and Edward, Buffy and Angel, Kaye and Roiben, etc. are the genre norm, drawing many a fluttery-eyed teen or tween-ager to voracious reading and fade-to-black daydreams. Thank goodness, I say, for living vicariously through books! Yet, for me, this underlines a yearning to explore a perhaps "outdated" (or "vintage" as it may be returning) notion of the more "experienced" female MC and a more "innocent" love-interest.


In this matter, the female character does not necessarily have to be older than the man -- although I admit to enjoying the idea of Marion Zimmer Bradley's grey-haired characters, Sex in the City's Samantha Jones, and even Joss Whedon's Inara (who was arguably older than some of her clients) for that very reason -- but rather, that she is the one who has experience in matters of love, intimacy, or interpersonal relationships is something I find interesting especially if the girl is, well, still a girl, herself.* (In fact, you can also play off this stereotype where the cute, sparkly chick is the one who is the least innocent, and her love interest -- although rich, smart and handsome -- is completely floored. "Shiny!")

If you're old enough to remember Jeff Bridges' endearing portrayal in "Starman", you might remember how boyishly innocent he was in all things -- from swearing to (not) smoking a cigarette and screams of fright to apple pie -- and how that, more than anything, kept Jenny Hayden by his side. The same could be said for the lionesque Vincent from the cult classic, "Beauty and the Beast". (This is long before the Disney and Broadway versions, and gives us a glimpse of Linda Hamilton before she became a tough-gal for the sake of John Connor.) Catherine is more knowledgeable than Vincent in many ways and yet she is ignorant of his world -- their love long remains floating on a 'Rainer Maria Rilke' tide of innocence. [Although their chemistry reminds me most of Buffy and Angel, BTW -- cheesy as the time-gap may be.]

Pete Garey of Ariel and Joscelin of the Kushiel's Legacy are accomplished fighters and killers, only "innocent" in body. (Thus placing them firmly in a separate camp than Angel et al.) However, that is the most poignant thing effecting their relationships with Shaughnessy and Phèdre, respectively, and the stories acknowledge how these women's sexual knowledge encroaches and affects the lives of these men...something both gents rail against right from the start. Wesley (aka The Dread Pirate Roberts) is excluded from this esteemed company only because his beloved is, arguably, more innocent than he in every way.

This is also not a "cougar" relationship -- the goal is not to prey upon the male, or insinuate that she is only interested in the conquest of younger men, but merely that there is a set of circumstances wherein the female MC is the one with the knowledge/power (in this singular sense), where she holds the reins of choice and she may choose to share that knowledge or not, knowing what crossing that line may bring. He does not. (Or, like Pete, maybe he does and decides that it's not worth it! Losing Ariel vs. losing one's virginity is something even a fearsome magician like Malachi can respect.) The young man looks to our heroine with curiosity, even hesitation, in the wake of this larger-than-life, unknown thing and she is the one who must proceed slowly, carefully, reverently or withhold her desires with iron will. There is an awesome tension in this.

There is no tension when the male character rushes up screaming "Corrupt me! Corrupt me! For heaven's sake, PLEASE!" like a pimply boy from a John Hughes movie or pushed into the spotlight like some 40-year old virgin; it's Peter Pan mistaking thimbles for kisses, or Lily and Jack's chaste trysts in enchanted woods, or the wide-eyed innocence before corruption when William was merely William the Poet as opposed to "William the Bloody" or the irreverent "Spike". The allure of innocence is in its magical moments, the ones that are cherished for their fragility. It's approaching the other person with the shy, tentative smile while bringing a candle that's "extra flamey" or being the sole object of attention, grokking the other person entirely.


Is there a place for this sort of role-reversal in modern YA storytelling? Or is the Prince Charming myth too close to our hearts? Is the older/experienced man who holds the slipper, the kiss, the key to a girl's innermost fulfillment too deeply entrenched for the idea of a girl's tentative exploration of a more virginal lover to work? Is it too foreign a concept to draw readers in? Does it demand too much from a passive romantic ideal?

I'm curious. But, then again, my husband is two years younger than me.


* This does not necessarily mean sex, either (in any of its many colorful definitions). Being "experienced/knowledgeable" is not something solely belonging to ex-virgins, but more a familiarity or comfort with bodies, touching, physicality, personal space, romantic relationships, the game of attraction, etc. You most likely know what I mean.

Tags:

Comments

( 37 comments — Leave a comment )
[info]faerie_writer wrote:
Nov. 3rd, 2008 12:46 pm (UTC)
Interesting take on the subject. I like the idea of role reversal and definitely think there's a place for it in YA.
[info]dawn_metcalf wrote:
Nov. 3rd, 2008 01:33 pm (UTC)
Thanks. I hope you're right! (*wink wink* WIP *wink wink*)
[info]megancrewe wrote:
Nov. 3rd, 2008 01:24 pm (UTC)
This is something I've been thinking about a lot, too--I don't really like (well, it depends on the story and how well it's done, but generally speaking) the dynamic of wide-eyed, innocent girl completely swept up by knowing boy/man who must use his greater experience to make sure their relationship doesn't get out of hand. The balance of control seems really skewed. Whereas even when you have an innocent male character and a more knowing female character, the guy still has some types of power--to use the most basic example, the guy is still likely to be physically stronger.

So I guess what I'm saying is I like both partners in a relationship to have some power, rather than having it all on one side. I don't like relationships where one is theoretically "helpless" to the other. And that seems to happen a lot more with innocent girls than innocent guys. :P

I actually have a couple of novels (one written, one only in brainstorming stage) where the male character's love interest is more worldly and experienced than him. But those are both from the guy's point of view. Now I'm thinking about how I might write that sort of relationship from the girl's... Great post!
[info]dawn_metcalf wrote:
Nov. 3rd, 2008 01:39 pm (UTC)
Oh, I agree - trading plumbing does not alleviate the problem of a skewed power dynamic. That's why I'm more for the Petes, Joscelins and Wesleys -- they are all strong, knowledgeable and capable in other aspects, just not in this one.

I'm thinking of sort of the recent Smallville Superman teen or Starman/Peter Pan trope: a super-powered or fantastical being who has lots of power in one sense, but is innocent in the ways of human romantic relationships. Innocence, in this sense, does not mean "helpless" but physically pure or new to the concept of attraction.

Good point!
[info]prophet1 wrote:
Nov. 3rd, 2008 01:45 pm (UTC)
I've noticed in real life, here in Qld Australia, young women are attracted to, and are confident enough to seduce/date older men. In my parents generation it was common for partners to be the same age. Has society been influenced by literature, television, and film?

I think the role reversal is happening in real life. I'm generalising here and this is my opinion, be it an opinion nurtured from experience. Men have become complacent and lazy, and women are powerful, intelligent, confident, and will emerge as the true leaders in society.

I'll welcome role reversal in any genre, certainly role balance in life.

I think the best characters are those that are imperfect, strong, but real. I think characters need to be physically flawed too.

Does life mirror art or art mirror life? The virginal helpless girl and prince charming thing. Are we done with that? I hope so.

[info]dawn_metcalf wrote:
Nov. 3rd, 2008 01:52 pm (UTC)
It's hard to say whether life mirrors art or art mirrors life and there is certainly a cultural allure to the December-June pairing (and, oddly enough, that this is initiated and desired by the younger female).

And, as a big fan of tragic/flawed characters, you get two thumbs-up from me for imperfections and challenges!

The virginal helpless girl and prince charming thing. Are we done with that? I hope so.

Hate to say it, but pointing to Stephenie Meyer's mega-hit series, I think I can honestly say, "No."
[info]prophet1 wrote:
Nov. 3rd, 2008 02:15 pm (UTC)
Is it a contradiction that women fight, or seem to, so hard for equality, and yet are drawn to stories about the virginal helpless girl and strong male characters. Whats the stats on who's buying Stephenie Meyer? Its a mystery to me.

Are writers too market directed?

[info]dawn_metcalf wrote:
Nov. 3rd, 2008 03:06 pm (UTC)
These are all good questions and certainly ones that I struggled with throughout college and graduate school, not just for my subject but for myself, as well.

I'm not market-directed, but then again, I'm not as successful as SM (yet). ;-)
[info]esotaria wrote:
Nov. 3rd, 2008 01:53 pm (UTC)
I love that type of relationship (Kaylee and Simon! ♥!) but I'm not sure how well it would work in a YA novel. I think the appeal of the inexperienced girl/more experienced lover for young girls is that...well, they're inexperienced too. These stories help feed the fantasy that someone will come along and teach them what it means to be in love, in a relationship. (Because who wants to learn from their parents?) A more confident, experienced woman doesn't speak to their insecurities and desire for knowledge in the same way. I think it would work for some girls -- those who are more confident, more willing to learn by personal exploration than outside guidance -- but most girls have been taught that they need to be taught.
[info]dawn_metcalf wrote:
Nov. 3rd, 2008 02:13 pm (UTC)
And that's *exactly* what makes me nutty -- that girls are told that they are not in control of (or responsible for?) their own knowledge or learning about themselves and their bodies/emotions/preferences/etc. and that this is some elusive secret that others -- usually men in heterosexual relationships -- somehow "know" for them and will "teach" them when the man thinks the girl "is ready" (in his opinion). This is not only unfair to the girls, but to the *guys* as well! Talk about pressure! Not only do the menfolk have to know/care about themselves, they have to magically have all the answers for their partners as well? Yikes!

Hence, why I think there is this dependence on older, sometimes paranormally older, and more experienced males. You're right in saying this is easier and (perhaps) more common in this day and age, but it can come perilously close to a cop-out. And, again, does art mirror life or vice versa?

I would love this more "realistic" approach where there a female teen who is just learning about these things herself joins her partner without the expectation that one is supposed to lead the way OR she discovers that she is the bolder or more knowledgeable one -- either because she's had more relationships or has simply been "human" while the male has not.

But it's true that it is far more simple and, perhaps, comforting for a teenage girl to sit back and live through a character who is passively swooning in the capable arms of her mature and wise love-interest. I just don't think this is the best and/or only way...maybe girls would be flattered (or to use the jargon phrase "empowered") by the idea that her level of experience, even if it's minimal or being alive as a human being, is the dominant wisdom.

Of course, no one says the girl would BUY such a book, either. :-p
[info]esotaria wrote:
Nov. 3rd, 2008 02:27 pm (UTC)
That is the problem, isn't it? The way I see it, that kind of book has two options: become critically acclaimed and somehow start getting taught in schools, or get a movie adaptation made and pray that the writer doesn't screw it up.

Curses! You've got my head spinning with ideas! XP
[info]dawn_metcalf wrote:
Nov. 3rd, 2008 02:48 pm (UTC)
*grin* Well, I'm glad I got you thinking! (And boy, wouldn't I want to be critically-acclaimed? Yeah, right!)

Just for the record, I don't blame guys for this, either. I think we all have a stake in creating/perpetuating this cultural trope and I, for one, sympathize with all angles as opposed to merely two sides of the fence.

When asked what I majored in, I'd say "Gender Studies." "Oh. Women's Studies?" and I would reply with, "Well, that's one gender, yes..."
[info]esotaria wrote:
Nov. 3rd, 2008 02:53 pm (UTC)
*snort*

Hear hear! We all suffer from gender typing and discrimination. (Also, I kept reading "angles" as "angels." Reverse typo-ing? 'Tis strange.)
[info]dawn_metcalf wrote:
Nov. 3rd, 2008 03:03 pm (UTC)
Oh, I support all angels in this, too. Right, [info]prophet1? ;-)
[info]prophet1 wrote:
Nov. 4th, 2008 05:02 am (UTC)
Hey, I went to bed. Now angels have no gender, and at times I feel this way as well. When I heal or trance spirit, I become the person/spirit. I physically become the woman -- breasts, hips, yes, and I also fell what its like for a woman to feel love. This would sway me to look for a strong male, but since I'm experiencing at a higher self level I also know how strong, confident, and nurturing female energy is. Equal to male energy, not drawn to male energy.

Habit is energy. Mary was a virgin, Mary Magdalene a prostitute, Joseph a strong man, God has a Son, God (the word) is masculine. Habit. History (us) has created the strong male, vulnerable female. In literature it works, because its the energy we've created, expect. Its not accurate though, only what we're familar with, even if we disagree. Like moths to a flame.

Strength is not courage, leadership, honesty, trust, or any other quality you might look for/hope is in a man. Prince charming is only prince charming in name.

Change topic -- Angels have wings because we believe they have wings. In the 14th century some dude painted angels with wings, so now when I see an angel they have wings for identification. We create! Thinking is creation.

Inside each of us is the truth, only that. What we write/comment is what we think/react to/expect, but its not the truth.

Is this the truth or what I believe? If I said to all of you/me -- write, only that. Don't plan, plot, think about anything that has been written before -- create! Angels wings were created by an artist.
[info]divinebird wrote:
Nov. 3rd, 2008 02:15 pm (UTC)
Tangentially related
[info]dawn_metcalf wrote:
Nov. 3rd, 2008 02:48 pm (UTC)
Re: Tangentially related
*snerk*

Perfect!
[info]emilyhainsworth wrote:
Nov. 3rd, 2008 02:16 pm (UTC)
I dunno, can't it also be alluring when both male/female are equally naive? Um...The Blue Lagoon comes immediately to mind, for movie example. You can have unabashed exploration, and it can seem incredibly sexy at the same time. I don't think being trapped on a desert island is the only way to achieve this either. Especially in YA, there are many opportunities for girls and guys to be on equal footing when it comes to certain types of experiences. One doesn't ALWAYS have to have more experience than the other, though I'm not going to argue that it isn't VERY common.

Boy I hope that made sense. Haven't finished first cup of coffee!!
[info]dawn_metcalf wrote:
Nov. 3rd, 2008 02:51 pm (UTC)
Actually, that makes perfect sense and is a good point. It's rare, of course, but it is by no means ineffective. In fact, I'd argue that in the case of Blue Lagoon, that innocence gives BOTH of them power, in a way. Equality can be a very happy and sexy thing, although I've often heard that in real life, two fumbling virgins aren't all fun & games and somebody is likely to get poked in the eye... ;-)
[info]cynleitichsmith wrote:
Nov. 3rd, 2008 02:17 pm (UTC)
with YAs...
There is at least the idea that "girls mature faster than boys," which in real life varies from individual to individual, but at least among peers, there may be more social approval to girls wanting "relationships" per se.

Just thinking aloud here... My male-female pairings tend to be the same age, with a couple of exceptions (one in which the older man was predatory and one in which he was roughly the equivalent age, given that what he was aged at a different rate). In all cases, though, the girls gain power over the course of the story, which is one of my re-occurring themes across age-markets.

But from my own YA years, the relationship I remember most fondly was with a boy/young man (the same one) who was a year younger. I remember there being mild social fallout and some confusion as to my decision (not his). But definitely, I received more positive reinforcement on the age issue for dating a HS senior as a HS sophomore than I did for dating a HS junior as a HS senior.

Interesting topic! I'll definitely feature the link on Cynsations, if you don't mind!
[info]dawn_metcalf wrote:
Nov. 3rd, 2008 03:01 pm (UTC)
Re: with YAs...
I'm pleased that you think this is worthy of inclusion -- please feel free!

I actually think your point of girls being "more mature than boys" is a valid one and certainly I like to highlight that the notion of "mature" is something that should be ascribed to an individual and not merely an age category. It reminds me of Rory's choice on Gilmore Girls between the "sweet and safe" Dean (Jared Padalecki) and the hardened, streetwise Jess (Milo Ventimiglia). These boys were about the same age but RADICALLY different in their maturity, attitudes, relationships, etc. [Both young actors went on to become "Big Hotties" on Supernatural and HEROES, respectively.]

Of course growth and maturity should come throughout the book, as this is certainly true of any character development, but I guess I was wondering if the appeal of the more innocent girl vs. the more experienced guy had the cornerstone of this market or if there was room for something different...?

Thanks for chiming in!
[info]prophet1 wrote:
Nov. 4th, 2008 05:40 am (UTC)
Re: with YAs...
I think girls mature faster than boys because they think. Boys react. Girls are stimulated emotionally, boys visually. Physically as opposed to internally. Internal growth, stimulation, is more productive to maturity.
[info]hansenfilm wrote:
Nov. 3rd, 2008 03:30 pm (UTC)
starman sequel
Speaking of Karen Allen, I wrote an unsolicited script for a Starman sequel back in 1998. It was my first script and I quit college to finish it. It’s been gathering dust ever since. I sent it to Jeff Bridges and John carpenter, although I would prefer if Carpenter didn’t direct a sequel. I wrote some good f/x sequences and some interesting characters. I’m pretty sure I’ll never be involved, but I’d to see the f/x scene from the beach being incorporated, (Jeff’s manager Neil will know the one, totally plagiarised from another movie, but it would look great on film today). If anyone has any questions, email me at hansenfilm@yahoo.ie and I’ll answer them. (Although I won’t give away any plot points. And yes there is a son and indeed, I actually have the perfect casting suggestion!!
[info]dawn_metcalf wrote:
Nov. 3rd, 2008 04:21 pm (UTC)
Re: starman sequel
Hmm...actually, there *was* a Starman sequel as a TV series. And there was a son in it, too, as preordained in the movie. Might want to check it out.
[info]hansenfilm wrote:
Nov. 3rd, 2008 04:29 pm (UTC)
Re: starman sequel
Yep, I saw it. Just not the same without Jeff bridges. It would be nice if they made one now, with Karen Allen after making a return in Indy 4.

[info]dawn_metcalf wrote:
Nov. 3rd, 2008 04:37 pm (UTC)
Re: starman sequel
Wow! You're right -- that would be fabulous. I swear, she hasn't changed a bit...!

:-)
[info]robinellen wrote:
Nov. 3rd, 2008 03:31 pm (UTC)
Interesting thoughts. I loved Beauty and the Beast, btw. Had a huge crush on Vincent, myself ;)

I think I like the idea of slightly older romance because it can be for the rest of their lives...young romance usually can't/isn't, and I like the idea of happily ever after, I guess. :) Of course, I was 31 when DH and I got married, so I definitely went for older, heh. (DH and I are the same age)
[info]dawn_metcalf wrote:
Nov. 3rd, 2008 04:22 pm (UTC)
I crushed on him, too.

It's the voice, I think. Ron Perlman's also an amazing actor!
[info]robinellen wrote:
Nov. 3rd, 2008 05:40 pm (UTC)
Yeah, his voice is amazing...and his character was so subtle.
[info]fabulousfrock wrote:
Nov. 3rd, 2008 04:00 pm (UTC)
I think there is certainly room for all types of stories, and I think the naive man with the more experienced woman certainly has appeal.

The way I write relationships has certainly changed since I was a teen and had not been IN a relationship. When I was 13-16ish, my favorite character was a much older man who had like, a bajillion powers and was good at everything, and he seduced younger women and then was sometimes even abusive to them. Why on earth was I writing stuff like this? I really couldn't tell you. My parents have a good relationship and I've always been quite sensible about romance in real life, but there was a strange allure to this completely unbalanced story that I couldn't explain. I will say that in this story, I didn't see myself as the woman--I saw myself as the older man. Perhaps it was a way of connecting with a powerful, even occasionally violent, masculine force that I don't necessarily possess (well, not to that degree, certainly). The story was not really about the girl, but about this man and whether or not he'd be able to redeem himself and change his behavior. I certainly can't say if that's how all women see it when they go nuts over Edward or whatever.

Thinking on relationships I've written in my twenties, they tend to be much more balanced, with both sides bringing something to the relationship, and each having their areas of experience and knowledge and wisdom, and their gaps.
[info]dawn_metcalf wrote:
Nov. 3rd, 2008 04:26 pm (UTC)
Thinking on relationships I've written in my twenties, they tend to be much more balanced, with both sides bringing something to the relationship, and each having their areas of experience and knowledge and wisdom, and their gaps.

This is very well-said and, in fact, what I hope to achieve. While there might be some argument to what Kaye or Buffy bring to their "unbalanced" relationships, I'd like to see something more concrete and obviously "shared" with the male protagonist that touches on this powerful force that you elude to in your early story-making. That has appeal and I'd like to see more female MCs have it...although maybe not so violently. :-p
[info]thegreatmissjj wrote:
Nov. 3rd, 2008 07:33 pm (UTC)
In my own personal life I was the more "experienced" one before I met Bear in terms of sexual relationships and possibly even actual love. I had been in love before, intensely and passionately but chastely, with my English teacher 35 years my senior when I was 16. Bear is 5 months older than me, but I think I'm definitely the one who wears "the pants" in our relationship.

The romances I wrote when I was 13-16 generally involved unrequited love in Victorian times, rife with angst and consumption and premature death as well as sparring Regency love stories relayed via epistolary formats. (Yes, I was very pretentious.) But the heroes/heroines were a bit more on equal footing; I never really liked the trope of the younger girl falling for the older, more experienced man (even though I was in love with my English teacher, I never wanted our "relationship" to go anywhere). It makes me uncomfortable and I don't find it romantic in the least. (I make an exception for Jane Eyre and Rochester because Jane is actually the one in emotional control of their relationship despite their age difference.)
[info]dawn_metcalf wrote:
Nov. 4th, 2008 12:35 am (UTC)
Mmmm! Angst and consumption! What isn't there to love about that? Sounds a little like Phantom of the Opera, actually.

And I'd equate "emotional control" to the same sort of power dynamic I am speaking of -- wherein the girl is in the driver's seat (for real, as opposed to the condescending "perception" that she is allowed to believe).
[info]prophet1 wrote:
Nov. 4th, 2008 05:33 am (UTC)
Perception?! This is interesting. I tell you you're beautiful, you can have the drivers seat, and I mean it. Even if this was fiction, I doubt if the reader would belive it. They know/expect I'm going to be condescending. I imagine you'd/the character would challenge me. Conflict. I surrender, take the drivers seat, I trust you. Do you believe me? Will the reader?
[info]dawn_metcalf wrote:
Nov. 4th, 2008 03:52 pm (UTC)
Hmm. Interesting, but that wasn't what I meant. *grin*

By "perception" of control I meant the theme when a older male in a relationship allows the younger girl to "believe" that she is controlling/fooling/manipulating/seducing/etc. him which creates an illusion of a "driver's seat" power instead of an actual empowerment. Does this make sense?

Now YOU bring up an entirely new perspective on the issue: trust, honesty, surrender and ownership are certainly deeper (and, in my opinion, far more interesting) arenas of gender and social power that good books allude to and great books delve into.

And belief is the cornerstone of speculative fiction writing. Hear, hear!
[info]den_down_unda wrote:
Nov. 3rd, 2008 09:45 pm (UTC)
This is an interesting one. I often use Tammy Pierce as a bellweather for changing roles for female characters, since she's so outspoken about changing views on women (sheroes.com, for example), and actually, if you think about it, at least in the Tortall trilogy, she's totally conventional on the subject. It's always older, more experienced man and younger, more innocent woman. (It's still relative, since none of Tammy's heroines are entirely "innocent"; Kel comes the closest, though Alanna has her moments.)

One of my other friends who a) has studied lit-crit and theory and b) still loves romance novels thinks it's because older man/younger woman is both the historical model (think 50-year-old William Marshall marrying an eighteen year old heiress for example) and because it's so ingrained in our culture.

She also says this is the reason for Snape/Hermione fanfiction. :)
[info]dawn_metcalf wrote:
Nov. 4th, 2008 01:44 am (UTC)
Tamora Pierce is certainly a good example!

It's true that our past history dictates that younger brides were offered to older husbands and not vice versa, but while this certainly exists within the cultural backdrop, dos it still shock people to see younger men with older women? I think back on Something's Gotta Give and marvel how Harry and Marin get barely a blink but Erica and Julian are made a big deal and their split is more forceful at the end.

The desire and expectancy is there, but is there room for something else? Or is that doomed to fail under an avalanche of contrary notions?
( 37 comments — Leave a comment )